==========
In Cascade, ID -- we had an old salt (gone now) who used to make his own brick-sized "bricks" out of concrete. He would lay up conventional brick walls, mixing in a few salvaged real bricks for color and effect. The walls look great all these years later and at least two of them can still be seen in town -- one at the house where he used to live -- two doors down from where my Mom's house used to be.
==========
When oil came in the round metal and cardboard containers, my Dad would bury three of them for "fill" and pour conventional-sized concrete building blocks -- several pop cans (opening down) would serve the same purpose = strong block while "stretching" the concrete. This way if he ran short on a project, he could buy a few blocks from the store and finish the project quickly. ==========
I don't know if this helps any with metal forms -- and it's probably not very earth friendly either -- but for re-useable wood forms (and they ARE re-useable), we've sprayed (with a pump-up garden sprayer) or brushed on used motor oil to make the forms MUCH easier to remove. (If you're reluctant to use oil, even spraying the forms with water right before the pour helps.)
Remember to use rubber gloves -- the lime in concrete will do a real number on your hands -- and keep tools and everything clean and dry OR drop 'em in a bucket of water (or a trash can of water for larger hoes and rakes and shovels) if you don't have time to clean them immediately. When you're done, spray metal tools with WD40 or similar and they'll stay like new and rust free indefinitely -- and a used paid-for tool is better than a new expensive tool any day -- plus your Grandpa or whoever you might have borrowed the tools from will LOVE you for it!
==========
I think all manner of plastic and glass and any non-organic debris could be used for fill. (And certainly SOME stable organic debris -- like wood chips and chopped straw could be used as well. There's considerable evidence that wood chips and chainsaw debris -- maybe even sawdust -- (all soaked in water overnight) actually slow the cure, minimizing cracks AND making for a
stronger cured-out mortar or block.) I believe it was Rob Roy and his experiments with mortar for cordwood masonry which convinced me of the viability of using wood chips & chainsaw debris mixed with concrete. It's a great way to dispose of broken glass and plastic wrapping and styrofoam meat containers -- basically any household trash that won't burn "cleanly" or decompose in a compost pile. If you can't safely burn it or compost it, encase it in concrete blocks and build stuff!
==========
I heard of the Chinese building large four-sided "blocks" with a floor -- all made of concrete. They would fill the blocks with their refuse -- presumably NOT human or animal manure as that is used for fertilizer -- and then pour a lid to complete the block and build all kinds of walls and structures with them. When I first heard scientists telling us how "safe" nuclear reactors and their radioactive waste is, that was my first thought: Let's build some houses with these "Chinese" blocks, fill them with this "safe" radioactive waste, require these so-called "scientists" and THEIR golden heirs to live in them for a few generations for a real-life experiment and then we'll see just how safe this stuff REALLY is. I call it putting your body and the bodies of those you love where your mouth is. I'd compare it to Trump and his progeny living -- as they do --
in the Trump Tower. It must be safe, right?
==========
sail4free
==========
PS ~ does anyone have any recipes for "earthcrete" (dirt and concrete mixed together) which would work for building blocks? The contrast between dirt-colored blocks and concrete-colored masonry might be more visually pleasing. Plain concrete-colored blocks with concrete-colored masonry are b-o-r-i-n-g to look at. How about adding crushed charcoal or chopped dead pine
needles or chopped up pine cones or some of that red sand from Moab, UT for color or would the charcoal upset the chemical magic?
==========
This reminds me of one of my favorite "floors" -- using 2X4 redwood scraps on edge to build permanent forms in a random pattern for a floor poured-in-place over a plastic vapor barrier (overlap loose edges 6" and secure with continuous duct tape). (Also important to
have 4" of compacted sand under the pour for good drainage.) (If floor is below grade, plumb drainage off into a constructed "dry well" where a sump pump can be installed if necessary.) Pound rusty old bent nails into all faces which will be covered with concrete (these
"porcupine quills" anchor the boards to the concrete and keep them from heaving up out of the concrete.) Immediately before the pour, sweep or vacuum the top edges of the redwood form boards clean and cover them with duct tape. Do the pour and finish as usual. IMMEDIATELY remove the duct tape so the %&*#! adhesive -- perhaps warmed by the sun -- doesn't mess up the exposed redwood edges too much. Don't worry about falling flotsam knocked loose by
removing the tape, it can be safely brushed off AFTER the concrete is hard enough to walk on. There are many advantages to this approach: (1) no forms to remove and (2) one can break up large, intimidating areas into smaller portions which are easily worked by us D-I-Yers withOUT power trowels, long-handled trowels, etc. If the smaller dimension is kept to 6' or less, one can reach out and trowel with a regular, hand-held trowel but no reason pad areas can't be 2' by 4' or even 12" square for that matter -- just remember to install the "porcupine quills" before assembling the forms OR leave room to swing a hammer. "Broom" finishes are sure forgiving for us amateurs or whenever traction is needed on a sloping ramp or garage door apron (a small
area of concrete which makes the transition from dirt or blacktop up to a concrete slab floor), for example. The redwood edges can be sealed -- multiple coats with a clear sealer -- immediately. Most concrete sealers will require the concrete to cure a specified number of weeks BEFORE
sealing the concrete -- read the containers carefully for best results. This gives you a surface much prettier to look at and a lot easier to sweep and clean. A few random ceramic tiles or woodrounds or chunks of plastic pipe on end could always be fitted in during the pour for even more creative fun. Redwood is soft, so don't be dragging monster furniture or refrigerators
across the stuff -- wheels on carts are one of our earliest inventions . . . use them!
==========
sail4free (last edited 11/14/06)
==========

==========
From: "Jonathon"
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 18:43:04 -0000
Subject: [cheap-shelters] Re: PALLET QUONSETS 101:
==========
"I like your design and I have bookmarked your page. Your structure could be covered in burlap dipped in cement, then tacked on gradually, then painted with tar or waterproofing paint."
==========

From: sail4free
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 19:37:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [cheap-shelters] PALLETS or USED MOBILES?
==========
ADH: "I'm a major fan of quonsets. The quonset shape, anyway. I'm not
so sure about the pallets. I'm not sure about gettin' them fer free.
Pallets wouldn't be my first choice to use."
==========
With a little "footwork", you can line out unlimited sources for free
pallets -- some of them might be damaged, but there's still a lot of
GOOD left in 'em.
==========
Some folks can take $200 dollars worth of materials and make it look
like a $20 dollar job. Others can take $20 dollars worth of materials
and make it look like a $200 job. The difference is what I call
workmanship -- attention to detail. While I lived with my Grandpa --
37 years ago -- we built three buildings which are still standing (in
heavy snow country) today. I never ONCE saw him in a hardware store or
a lumberyard -- everything was built with "experienced" lumber or
lodgepole pine (for rafters and poles) which we hand-peeled and
treated before planting them in holes and firmly tamping dirt around
them -- he didn't "do" concrete either for some reason I'll never
know. Something must have stuck. To this day, I make my living as a
carpenter (using mostly "new" wood) but I still prefer working with
old, seasoned, "experienced" wood. It's so rewarding to recycle wood
that others would have buried in a landfill somewhere or chopped up
into bedding for cows and build something useful and long lasting out
of free materials. I think it's a lot like recycling in general -- if
you do it all -- you do it because it makes intellectual sense to you
. . . NOT because it makes any financial sense. You do it for the same
reason my Grandpa & I straightened old, rusty nails and sorted them in
the winter while we contemplated life -- with no TV, only a radio in
the house -- sitting there by that old wood stove. It's not about
justifying the time spent in any financial way -- it's a deep
spiritual gratification on a much more meaningful plane.
==========
Personally, I truly love salvaging a 3' long 2X4 -- cutting the
"magic" angles on each end and tossing the little scraps of wood into
a bucket for my next campfire. Same thing when I cut the plywood
gussets -- trying to get as many as I can out of a piece of free scrap
plywood or OSB and tossing the "crumbs" into the campfire buckets --
nothing is wasted -- nothing ends up in a stupid landfill somewhere
that I have to buy gas to drive to AND then pay a fee to get into once
I get there! There IS a better way and I wish it on EVERYONE.
==========
ADH: "Now getting a singlewide or two for super low cost, to recycle
the materials from, is making more and more sense to me."
==========
I think old mobiles are a wonderful -- and vastly underutilized --
resource. In our area, dozens of folks are paying storage on their
empty homes month after month as they can't find a place to put them
and/or can't afford to move them far enough way from this bloated
gas-passing yuppiedom that Boise, ID has become. They know there is so
much intrinsic value there; they know what they're paying each month
for no better space in some apartment building somewhere so they can't
bear to part with them either. Of course many of them are filled with
storage STUFF (like mine is) so we're getting some value out of them
that way.
==========
On the other hand -- because of how they are constructed --
disassembling them is NOT as easy as one might think. Interior
paneling is usually glued and stapled. Flooring is glued and stapled
-- what we call "glued, blued and tattooed" (and often these huge 6' X
14' sheets -- on 14-wides anyway -- that are virtually impossible to
remove in any size that would be practical to re-use -- they're
usually particleboard "junk" anyway). VERY lightweight roof trusses
(made out of 1X2s) have the ceiling panels "trapped" between the wall
top plates and the bottom chord of the truss because these are
assembled upside down and then flipped over on top of all the walls.
Requires more patience than I have anymore to salvage the ceiling
panels for re-use and the roof trusses are SO lightweight that it will
require some real creativity to re-use them for anything long term.
Floor joists and floor insulation are good salvage but you have to go
to considerable work to get them freed up and "cleaned up"
(removing all metal fasteners and bits of wood debris). Wall studs and
wall insulation are good salvage but they have metal hurricane straps
at each stud top tied into the roof truss AND at each stud bottom tied
into the floor assembly -- these require large staples to be clipped
and removed -- one leg at a time to remove the metal strap = a REAL
labor of love! All to say, "GREAT resource but NOT easy either -- I've
done enough of it to know."
==========
The only easy part -- once you've pried the roof metal loose one
staple at a time -- is removing the metal siding and taking it to the
recycle yard. And we haven't even mentioned the MILES of Romex and
outlets and switches and boxes and plumbing and sinks and toilets and
counters and light fixtures and cabinets which have to be removed --
most of which can be RE-used if you know what you're doing and can
keep it organized enough to actually find WHAT you need WHEN you need
it. In the end, you still have a metal frame with axles and tires
which must be sold, traded, or otherwise disposed of.
==========
I think a better value with used mobiles -- especially single wides --
is remodeling and converting the space in such a way that it looks
more like a conventional stick-built home when you're done. Of course,
this requires locating them in an area where the code-breathing dragon
isn't shooting flames down the back of your neck. For example, I have
a 14 X 70 (counting the tongue) with a "box" size of 14 X 66. It would
be a lot of work but conceivable to remove the front kitchen, the
adjacent living room and the master bedroom at the back end. This
would leave a 14X32 "wet core" which includes the power supply panel,
the utility alcove for washer and dryer -- virtually all of the
plumbing and most of the electrical work. It would also leave the
larger hall bath with combo tub/shower and the "Jack and Jill"
bedrooms with the half bath between them.
==========
One could move the kitchen into the new "front" bedroom and have a
functional small house -- albeit with one very small bedroom --
complete with closet and built-in dresser and barely enough room for a
twin-size bed . . . but VERY close to its own half bath with a "short
cut" to the kitchen which is kinda' cool. The first year, one could
move this "wet core" to their land and have something which would get
them through their first winter. The following summer -- tear off the
roof/cheapo trusses/ceiling -- construct a 2nd floor, build walls and
a real roof to create two bedrooms upstairs and make it through their
2nd winter. The following summer -- site-build a one-story attached
living room to end up with a very nice looking, 3 bedroom,
bath-and-a-half house. Again, a very cost-effective approach to
getting a "real" house which no building inspector would ever approve
and no bank appraiser would ever value as worth a dime so it has to be
done pay-as-you-go -- no loans allowed -- and beyond their reach. All
this means -- if you ever decide to sell -- is you have to find a
buyer who has their own money and doesn't have to kiss up to some
banker just to have a place to BE or -- as the seller -- carry the
contract yourself and earn some interest income as a bonus. If the
price is right, who cares about those scamming insurance companies and
all their high-rise real estate investments? Put your premium money
into savings and if the sucker burns down, do it again -- or pay
someone like me to do it for you if you're too old by then to be
climbing ladders and playing with power tools.
==========
sail4free
==========

==========
OTHER PALLET QUONSET SIZES:
==========
INSULATION:
==========
CRUNCHING NUMBERS FOR FUN:
==========
(1) Cubic feet of interior space vs. "box" design -- helps make these spaces more economical to heat and cool.
(2) Square feet of surface area compared to typical "box" design -- this is the layer between conditioned interior air and whatever is going on outside. Domes rule this particular mathematical arena but are more difficult to build. Interior space is not as usable and not everyone agrees on their aesthetic value. They are difficult to roof and no vertical walls make window and door installation much more involved. Perhaps the quonset is an optimal bridge between most of the dome economies and a more conventional shelter which is much easier for D-I-Y-ers to build. (Although we have detailed a multi-faceted dome using the pallet quonset -- or pallet gothic arch -- ribs for a frame. In this design, the facets are closer to square -- trapezoids actually -- than the traditional triangular dome facets. Again -- much easier for D-I-Y-ers to build.) Trailer houses are a good example of a shape NOT to build. Closest to square footprint is optimal for minimum surface area exposure. Smaller two story better than larger one story = half the roof, half the foundation.
==========
HELPFUL FORMULAS:
==========
Circumference = Diameter X Pi (3.14159)
Area of a Circle = Pi X Radius squared
==========

==========
KISS SKYLIGHTS:
==========
The middle facet of the pallet gothic arch lends itself to KISS skylights which are inspired by Alex Wade. He would either cut or leave open the space between two ribs (or trusses) and slip a piece of plexiglass under a row of shingles -- like an over-sized clear shingle -- to make a skylight. Rain and whatever simply cascade over the plexiglass -- so much simpler than building a skylight curb with all its attendant framing and felting and flashing not to mention the expense of the skylight itself.
==========
Plexiglass "shingles" are about 12" wider than the opening which creates a 6" overlap on all sides. Two heavy beads (1/4" minimum diameter) of clear silicone are laid down parallel to the opening -- one about 2" from the opening and the other about 4" from the opening. Oversized holes (to allow for expansion and contraction) are drilled through the plexiglass on the sides and the downhill edge about 3" in from the edge and the piece of plexiglass is held in place with brass screws through the over-sized holes. Then clear silicone is generously applied over the brass screw heads. Roof water has to migrate through TWO rows of clear silicone to come inside. Clear silicone is expected to last 50 years in direct sun, so no worries there. The installation is simple enough the plexi can be replaced if it gets broken or too cloudy from scratches. These can also be easily installed on any comp shingle roof "later" if you don't want to take the time for them while the roof deck and shingles are being installed new.
==========
Once the above is done, you're "tight to the weather" and all other work can proceed on the inside. Jambs around skylights can be done with sheetrock but for such a thin shell with a small skylight, wood jambs will be easier to finish off. With ribs on 16" centers, the actual space between ribs is 14-1/2" but using this dimension could result in a too tight fit. If ribs are a full 3-1/2", cut jamb stock for the skylight trim to 4-9/16". The extra will stick out just a hair beyond 1/2" sheetrock and provide an edge for conventional window casing trim to be nailed to.
==========
I would start out building a four-sided box of 3/4" X 4-9/16" stock with outside dimensions of 14-3/8" X 19-1/2" and check for fit -- fit should be reasonably snug but you shouldn't have to fight it too much. Assemble the box with screws in pre-drilled holes and it can be easily modified if the fit is too tight. Once fitted into place, you can safely secure with finishing nails into the perimeter framing. Prior to fitting the box into final position, the purists among us will want to install 2X4 cross blocking between the ribs above and below the jamb box and that's fine -- doesn't hurt a thing.
==========
This should leave a finished opening with an inside dimension of approximately 12-7/8" X 18". In most areas, a 2nd layer "storm window" is needed so we don't lose all our heated or cooled air out the skylight. In this simple design, the storm needs to be removeable for cleaning. I would cut a piece of plexi 12-3/4" X 17-7/8" and a 1" thick spacer frame to the same dimension. Plexi can be screwed to spacer frame with small screws in pre-drilled and countersunk holes so screw head doesn't protrude below bottom face of plexi.
==========
Then I would use pieces of trim stock = 1X1 or 1X2 with a rounded corner to hold this assembly up against the bottom face of the skylight with foam weatherstrip between the trim stock and the bottom face of the storm. If trim screws are used, they can be easily removed again and again for cleaning the storm and the bottom face of the skylight. Plexi is soft and scratches easily, so you always want to use a soft and clean cloth or special pre-wetted packets for cleaning clear plastic. Never use regular glass overhead where someone might look towards a sound and get an eyefull of shattered glass.
==========
If the wood components of this skylight installation are painted bright white -- either semi-gloss or high gloss, they will reflect light and maximize natural illumination. Screw heads are better painted white with an aerosol spray can to avoid build-up and still be able to drive the screws.
==========

==========
FOUNDATION OPTIONS 101:
==========
FOUNDATION OPTIONS -- VERTICAL SIDEWALLS AND/OR ELEVATED FLOOR PLATFORM:
==========
This option details raising the support beam above posts sticking up 3', 4' or more above grade. This allows simpler pole-barn detail to make transition from "roof" to ground with girts, solid foam insulation between girts and siding (metal or otherwise).
==========
FOUNDATION OPTIONS -- FLOOR 8" ABOVE GRADE:
==========
I left the "proto-type" at 36' length anticipating an eight-post foundation with 12' grade beams between the piers. One method for a grade beam is to trench around the perimeter to a depth below the frost line. At 12' centers -- running the length of the building -- pour 24" square X 12" deep reinforced concrete footings. (Reinforced is simply a grid of 1/2" rebar creating a four-square shape about 18" X 18" -- suspend so that it ends up about half way up in the footing.) Locate short PT posts or chunks of RR ties to extend from top of footing to desired floor height. Below finished floor height, drill (2) horizontal holes through posts and pound 2' chunk of 1/2" rebar through the posts (this will keep posts and concrete grade beams in alignment). Line trench with landscape fabric (optional). Install 2X2 (with pre-installed "porcupine quills" facing IN and DOWN) to inside face of 2X8 form boards -- flush with the top edge. Secure 2X2s in place with 2-3/4" screws in 3/16" holes predrilled through the 2X8 form boards. (These 2X2s are continuous and will end up between the 2X8 form board and the outside face of the support posts.) Install 2'X8' slabs of white styrofoam insulation (1-1/2" thick) down into trench -- outside of posts -- and next to inside face of form boards. Then install the form boards in place -- these must be level as they will define the finished floor height = 8" minimum above grade. Top edge of foam slabs should be up against bottom edge of the 2X2s. Hold the foam slabs in place with similar screws gently installed in pre-drilled holes through the form boards. Run "quills" through the foam into where the concrete will be to hold the foam slabs in position and keep them from slipping down into the trench later. Cover all screw heads with tape, plastic -- whatever it takes to keep the screw heads CLEAN. Concept is to be able to easily remove ALL these screws before removing the form boards. After the pour and removal of form boards, this should leave an embedded 2X2 "nailer" flush with top of concrete and "outside" of post as a girt would be. Below that will be the foam slab insulation which will help the inside floor store heat in the winter and store coolness in the summer. Then it's a simple matter to nail on flat galvanized sheet metal to protect the foam to some point below grade. After protective metal is installed, brace and stake form board securely so there is no way it can bulge out during later steps. Fill trench to grade with gravel and lay down plastic vapor barrier to cover trench and extend into living area. Wire overlapping rebar together to extend continuously from post to post = full length of each grade beam and support rebar with wire slings as needed so it will end up in the middle of the grade beam (wire sticking out after the concrete has cured can be clipped flush). Then install 2X6 redwood form boards on the inside face of the posts and stake and brace them so boards can't bulge inward during the concrete work. 1/2" plywood scraps can be tacked on lower 2" of inside face to bridge the air space between bottom of redwood form boards and the trench. Secure J-bolts to metal strap with a nut and washer below the strap and a nut and washer above the strap -- cover exposed threads with black electrical tape to keep them clean of concrete splash. Wrap straps over top edges of form boards and secure on outside faces with double-headed nails so the straps can be removed after the concrete sets up. Place J-bolts on 4 to 6' centers but anticipate rib locations to avoid conflict between the locations of the joist hangers (see ATTACHING RIBS TO SILL PLATE below) and the J-bolts sticking up through the sill plate. If placing a 2X6 redwood sill plate (recommended) -- the outside edge will be 1-1/2" beyond the outside face of the posts, so anticipate the sill plate centerline to position the J-bolts. Immediately prior to filling the forms with concrete, cover top edges of the redwood with duct tape and then remove the tape as quickly as possible after finishing the concrete. This will keep the top edge of the redwood clean and attractive in case it becomes part of some future floor. Also important to drive old nails partially in (porcupine quills) on faces of the permanent redwood form boards so they won't separate from the concrete and will stay in alignment with the concrete.
==========
FOUNDATION OPTIONS -- RUBBLE-FILLED TRENCH: Though I worry about up-lift potential with a lightweight structure in windy areas, a rubble-filled trench offers some great low-cost possibilities. Essentially a rubble-filled trench is -- or at least can be -- designed much as a drainfield line. A 24" deep trench (or whatever is required to get 4" below frost line in your area) is cleared out and a couple of inches of gravel is placed in the bottom of the trench. (I've often thought landscape fabric lining the trench would be a good idea. It would let water drain through freely but keep sand and/or dirt from mixing in with the gravel.) (Should this gravel be crushed rock? The type sold specficially for drainfields? The type also used for railroad track beds because it holds position and doesn't settle?) Then, perforated 4" drain line -- with the holes laid towards the bottom -- are laid in the trench (preferably with a downhill slope of 1/8" per foot. These lines are plumbed together and should exit to "daylight" (if building on a ridge or hill) or a dry well with provision to add a sump pump later if needed. Then the trench is simply filled to finish grade with gravel. Plastic is laid down for a vapor barrier and over-sized PT sills (use 2X8 under 2X6 wall, for example) or RR ties are simply laid on top of the plastic-covered gravel. The primary purpose of a foundation is to prevent frost heaving which might distort the structure unevenly. Such heaving requires the presence of water AND freezing temperatures. Eliminate either of those and there is no problem. This design eliminates the presence of water under the sills without requiring any wood or concrete to be placed below grade.
==========
INSULATING SLAB ON GRADE:
==========
This detail allows foam slabs to enter trench next to outside faces of posts. Galvanized sheet metal is then installed to protect the foam insulation -- from bottom girt to below grade. Galvanized sheet metal is nailed to the embedded girt with galvanized nails. Siding can then be shingled over the galvanized sheet metal (and nailheads) with foam weatherstripping between the two layers. This gives a nice clean transition from siding to the ground with no wood or foam exposed to the weather. On the inside, the top edge of the bottom girt can do double-duty by defining floor level above grade. Probably still a good idea to re-fill the perimeter trench with gravel for drainage. Then one could install a form board to the inside face of posts and pour a concrete sill support if desired to facilitate future floor and wall work.)

==========
(Posted to cheap-shelters 04/04)
==========
Laren: "You should be able to also form that central ring with wood, if you cut accurately, perhaps strap it with nailing plates, and/or gusset it very well on the inside and out with plywood, all around."
==========
Agreed. I just thought some 3/16" flat plate by 4" or so could be curved into an 18" circle and welded. Smaller box steel has the same I.D. as a typical 2X so it's fairly straight forward to remove one wall of the "box" and create a U-shaped clip to receive the end of the rib. Circumference of this ring is about 56.5 inches so if we allow 2" for each rib clip, it would leave about 1-5/8" of space between the clips (which also gives us some idea of how close together these ribs end up being as they near the peak -- small wonder these dome shapes are so inherently strong). Prior to welding the clip in place, I'd want to pre-drill it for screws or bolts to hold the rib. I'm not a welder but two of my friends are -- one is a production welder at a utility trailer plant -- either of them could knock one of these out in a few hours so that would make it REAL easy for me!
==========
Laren: "I agree. Two smart workers, with electricity, who know how to hustle, could get it done, fairly quickly. It is all basically repeating the same light work. Could even be a rather pleasant job. Good work needs a little
thinking to it, or the boredom will get to you."
==========
A good stereo helps . . . unless one of you is addicted to classic rock and the other to country; then things can get a little testy . . . but at least not boring. My electrician friend and I were working on a project together for a few days. The "primary" was a country fan and the music was loud and always on. We're both classic rockers and the last day he said, "You know how they call that stuff S&*#-kickin' music?" I said, "Yeah." Then he said, "That's cuz' after listening to it for a few days, you just wanna' kick the S&*# out of somebody!"
==========
People who don't talk much can sure be funny as hell when they finally decide to say something.
==========
Laren: "Did you look at that big round barn? They had a long ditch where they soaked the boards for their site laminated rafters, and curved sheathing. Board sheathing also leaves a lot of open space, for intricate shapes, can be faster than having to cut plywood to flex around bends."
==========
I guess I missed that one. Was that one of your links? I'd like to look at it. The plans I have for site-laminated gothic arch rafters are simply "cold-bent" around blocks on the floor and glued and nailed in place. Of course, they're only 1X2s in that design so they bend easily. Seems like soaking 'em would interfere with the glue bond unless they let 'em dry bent and THEN glue 'em together? That huge gothic-arch barn in MEN was simply sheeted with 1" T&G -- flexible AND the boards can borrow strength from each other. The rafters for it were "cold bent" as well.
==========
Laren: "You could use lapped ridges so that you only have to cut one side. I really like that for valleys. I have not had a chance to try it on ridges, but I see no reason that it would not work quite well. Just do the second lap
away from weather, as you do with all roofing laps. Caps are pretty much just for looks with sealing shingles, anyway.
==========
With valleys -- especially if the bottom eaves of both sides of the valley are flush -- you can weave the shingle rows together and not cut either side. Installers kinda' hate it 'cause you have to roof both sides of a valley at the same time which involves a lot of extra time and effort. More typically, they'll run one side "wild" with the excess flaring up the opposite deck. Then they'll run the 2nd side "wild" with the excess overlapping the already roofed first deck. Then they snap a line and cut through the top layer only. This gives a straight valley "line" for a cleaner look than the weaving method. Of course, valley metal is another option -- and method -- where accumulating rooftop debris is a problem.
==========
With ridges, even though running a first layer "wild" and then overlapping it would be functional as a roof, the overlap angles DOWN the roof and would tend to "peek out" between finished rows. The added thickness of even running one side wild and cutting the second side isn't acceptable for us died-in-the-wool purist types and would be inconsistent and visible in the finished roof.
==========
Laren: "It would be a lot easier to use 90# rolled roofing. On most structures you could even run it vertically, if the facets were no wider than 3'. For wider facets, run it horizontally like huge shingles. Horizontal application will also
be more material conservative, because the angle cuts can be used for the next piece. Ridge capping would be in long strips. You can even get colors, if you search around, but white would make the most energy sense."
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I DO like this idea. Roll roofing is one of the last great classic values in roofing ($14.95 for 100 s/f = 15 cents a square foot . . . only twice the cost of 30 # felt!) and can be very serviceable IF folks don't rush it and give this stuff time to warm and flatten out smooth BEFORE it is nailed on. I think it also makes a great "emergency roof" in place of felt which can be shingled over "later" -- sometimes that later ends up being 20 years later! Whenever you see wrinkles in this stuff on an existing roof, it's because someone got in a hurry and didn't allow sufficient time for the material to warm and acclimate. The vertical installation (what we call "farmer style") on the "pallet dome" would work nicely if the maximum facet width is kept under 3'. For better visuals, though, I'd be inclined to use a conventional ridge cap: in either a matching color or a color with pleasing contrast. It's impossible to get cut edges to match the clean edge of factory edges. It's true, with horizontal application -- every cut could count so the potential is there for almost no waste BUT even the full exposure roll roofing has a 2" salvage edge which is usually covered by the next layer. So in alternating -- to take advantage of every angled cut -- this salvage edge would be exposed on every other facet and would need to be trimmed off for acceptable visuals. (But, of course, if you're gonna' shingle over it "later" -- who cares?) Again -- hard to get a clean cut -- especially on lighter-colored material cuz' the black asphalt emulsion tends to get squished out and irregular as you cut the warm material from the back (almost impossible to cut from the front).
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Laren: "Another alternative would be to just cut every tab to use as separate shingles. There is an interesting visual advantage to this approach. It allows you to vary the coursing to achieve a look that obscures the ridges almost completely, and let you further 'shape' the roof. Like these cedar shingles, that vary the courses, and even pile the scrap shingles under, to create a bumpy surface, in an old technique called "pyramiding".
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The pre-perforated shingles -- manufactured to be easily used for ridge cap -- would be perfect for this. I don't know if they cost more or not. One pattern I find particularly attractive is with even and parallel rows but every other row only exposes 2" instead of the standard 5-5/8" or so. Takes more shingles but a truly classic look. Another classic look -- which you've mentioned before -- is where every other shingle is spaced up an inch or so . . . a look some folks call "hounds tooth." Shingles can last a very long time on surfaces which are more wall than roof IF you can keep kids from tugging at them and pulling the loose corners off!
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Laren: "When I first joined cheap-shelters I did a long post about freespan Half-Gambrel trusses, and how they could be radiused in any number of facets, and even ascendingly spiraled around a central shaft, or chimney/utility
core, like a spiral stairs or chambered nautilus. I think, at that time, my message may have just been misconstrued, as anti--dome trolling, and the true essence of what I was trying to say, about alternative systems for faceted structures, seemed to have gotten lost in the smoke. It is complicated, but there is no limit to the shaping that can be done. With a sturdy interior support, which could even extend up through the roof, You could pour a very irregular, wandering footing, and lay each segmented pallet-truss out on the spot to give you a sculpted wall, which could easily vary its height, slope, base, number of facets, curve, etc, literally all of its shape characteristics. A combination of fitted sheathing, followed by any one of a variety of methods to smooth out the variations, and fine tune the shape. That last stage could be done with wood shingles, or with Nelda's concept of using salvaged extruded polystyrene, then spraycrete."
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I think of these options as an upside-down cupcake liner. You can squish it around and form any shape you want. Personally, I got lured into this pallet quonset concept with concerns for economy and simplicity of design. Like you, I've become fascinated with the flexibility and possibilities -- it's great fun to play with lines and notice how the simplest changes can have a dramatic effect on how something looks. But I NEED to keep it simple and I have to keep smacking myself in the head with my KISS hammer to hold the line.
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Having said that, I've noticed a wide variety in the framing lumber LENGTH of these pallets I've gathered for free. Lots of 4', 5' -- even 6' pieces. As size groups make themselves more apparent, I've envisioned pre-cutting rafter segments at 1' intervals. Some 3' -- some 4' -- some 5', etc. When I have 56 of any one length, that gives me enough for ONE facet down both sides of my 36' long shelter. I hate to, but I can always cut the longer ones shorter if I have to.
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My neighbors are already giving me the evil eye -- or maybe it's just a touch of paranoia -- but the plan is to disassemble the pallets as quickly as possible and precut framing and sheathing and stack my embarrassingly low-cost components neatly inside my garage and out of sight. That way, firewood and campfire debris can be stacked and organized and I can see at a glance how my project is going. And things will always look "neat" from the street -- part of the price we pay (for now) of living in Suburbia.
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Laren: "These shapes bring up other issue, like roof venting for moisture and excessive heat control. A none vented roof is usually not a roof that will maintain its insulation value, will likely rot, and lose it structural integrity
prematurely, and it may also grow toxic black mold. Due to the water and vapor seal of the exterior roofing this situation should never be confused with the far more forgiving nature of walls. It is very different. And, the problems that occur are also a lot worse, Condensation does not stay hidden, It wets your interior finish, and ceiling DO fall down. That ususally happens way before
the structure fails, but rot can take out the whole roof."
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I'm VERY meticulous with vapor barriers on the warm side of any insulation but moisture still finds its way inside sooner or later and provision must be made for that moisture to safely escape as quickly as possible. In our extremely dry, edge-of-the-desert climate -- it's not the issue it is in moister areas but it's STILL an issue. How do you recommend we vent this thin shell filled with fiberglass insulation? I know air moving across fiberglass compromises R-value as fiberglass is intended to function in a dead-air space. Do we need a double-deck roof? Or can I install housewrap on the outside of the ribs, lay down 1X2 or 2X2 furring strips -- and then secure the sheathing to the furring strips? This would create a 1" or 2" gap which could be covered with 1/8" mesh at the eave and then vented at the ridge with a continuous ridge vent or an elevated "Sun Valley Vent" which runs the length of the roof supported by 2X4s on edge.
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Another advantage of such a vented deck is in the summer as it begins to warm up, natural air convection carries much of the solar heating up and away before it has a chance to heat up the insulation and the sheetrock (or whatever interior finish there might be). This saves the shelter from excessive heating that much longer AND a cooler roof deck makes shingles last longer . . . an added bonus. Unfortunately -- in the winter -- there is a trade-off. Heat which gets through the interior finish and the insulation is also wisked away that much quicker. But perhaps this is a small price to pay for a wood structure which will last a very long time IF it is kept dry.
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Laren: "I have learned how to fully vent just about any shape, and even vent
around roof openings like skylights, chimneys, dormers, etc. and jack rafters without venting the hip ridges (a no-no in snow country)."
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I can see how ice dams combined with vented hip ridges would just let the water pour in. Ice dams aren't a problem everywhere and they're not a problem here every year but when they ARE a problem, rain gutters get ripped off with wild abandon and gutter-heating cables fly off the shelves. Better homes -- and the more conscientious roofers -- install a row of "snow shield" at the wet edges to combat this problem. State buildings require it at ALL roof edges, valleys, etc. which crosses over into "massive overkill" but I'd probably do the same if I could get someone else to pay for it.
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> Small windows which fit within any one facet might not be
> too bad but doors require vertical "boxes" to be glommed
> on somehow unless one wants to be completely radical and
> access the dome through an elevated floor like the beavers do!
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Laren: "Cool!....I like it.......you are a true creative thinker ;O)"
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Thanks for the orchids -- that's a definite compliment coming from someone with your talent and abilities.
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Laren: "If this seems like an aesthetic frivolity, think about how much easier it
would be to just use the pallets for a rectaliniear structure. Aesthetics
is at the heart of the very structure. Even the lowliest of shelters must have a heart."
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With the wide variety of pallets I'm getting, it's not at all clear how they could be used intact for much of anything like a rectalinear structure. Most of them have decking boards that are loose and damaged -- it's a labor of love to separate the good from the firewood. Shorter pieces of lumber almost demand a multi-faceted shape to fully exploit their lack of stature. I completely agree about aesthetics and heart -- a structure can be simple and small and frugal but it doesn't have to look like something thrown together by drunk students piling up pallets for a bonfire.
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Laren: "I think almost all good pallet design/build will hide them. They are seldom attractive, even in a crude way, and there is little consistency. Your segmented truss system sure hides them completely."
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For me, that is most of the fun -- building something nice out of free wood. Something SO nice that when it's done, no one will believe it was made from free pallet wood. It's that balancing point where workmanship makes ALL the difference and I find that particularly rewarding. I've never had the money to just go out and buy new materials whenever I wanted to build something for myself, so I've always saved every door, every window, every shingle, every scrap chunk of 2X4 I could get my hands on. If it's too short to make a block, I can always toss it in the stove for some free heat.
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> I need something much more permanent to justify
> all the time I'm "wasting" carefully taking all these
> pallets apart.
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Laren: "Then, think about venting it ;O)"
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Good advice -- I'll be counting on you to help me figure out the best, low-cost way to vent the pallet quonset/gothic arch shape.
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sail4free
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(Posted to cheap-shelters 05/04)
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QUONSET HUTS 102:
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RECESSED END WALLS:
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One really nice feature of A-frames, modified A-frames, gothic arches and quonsets is the ribs carry all the weight of the shell and the end walls (and all interior walls for that matter) are NON-load bearing. This means the end walls can be put anywhere so it's real easy to locate them 4' or 6' or 8' IN from the end of the shell which results in a nice shaded and protected outdoor area. Eventually this outdoor area might be a large deck or patio with some portion of it covered by the roof/wall "overhang" and the rest left open to the sun. In two story designs, covered balconies are common.
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CHANGE UPPER TWO FACET ANGLES:
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Comp shingle warranties require a minimum slope of 3 in 12. This equates to a 14 degree slope below horizontal which is only an issue for the two facets at the very top. For example, in the eight-facet design, this slope ends up being only 11.25 degrees. So we can change the angle and have these facets meet each other at the ridge in 28 degree fashion OR combine upper four facets into two larger 6-1/2' facets which extend to a pointed ridge. This results in a radical change in the building profile (most will like it better) and results in a roof much better suited for snow country. I was worried about snow piling up on the facets on either side of the ridge but this modification deals with it nicely -- changing the slope from less than 3 in 12 to more than 8 in 12. (I think we'll call this option the "snow cap" for easier future reference.) With the snow cap, crossties at ceiling height add strength to these longer slopes and provide some "flat" ceiling -- creating a little mini-attic (which should be vented at each end) and a nice place to run wires for ceiling lights, exhaust fans, ceiling fans, exterior lights at each end wall, etc.
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RIDGE CAP CUTTING DETAILS:
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These are cutting details to convert regular 3-tab comp shingles to ridge cap. In the old school, we would cut regular comp shingle in half lengthwise and use the individual tabs for ridge cap and the large solid piece for starter strip (goes at the roof edge under the first row of shingles). Now we buy starter strip in rolls and some special shingles (made for this purpose) are PRE-perforated to split the shingle into three equal pieces. If they're not perforated, it's a simple matter to cut the shingle into three equal pieces in line with the gaps between the tabs. This makes a MUCH superior ridge cap as the hot-melt glue line functions to really secure the cap in place and all roofing nails are concealed by the next shingle with only two nail heads visible which secure the last roof cap shingle tab in place. The whole exposed surface of the shingle tab is used so the offset is the same as if they were being used out in the middle of a roof. Position the free edge of overlapping ridge cap shingles pointed away from any prevailing wind for extra insurance against problems.
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ATTACHING RIBS TO SILL PLATE:
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Loading on ribs like these tries to spread the bottom ends of the ribs further apart so I think a conventional 2X4 joist hanger used in an UNconventional way would be a good idea. Lay the hangers flat on the beam or sill plate and use the foot of the hanger (which the bottom of the joist normally sits on) to keep the ribs from spreading. There are specific screws & nails designed for use with joist hangers. Use these special screws OR special nails to make all connections between sill and joist hangers and ribs.
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PALLET QUONSET BARNS:
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It would be low cost and simple enough to construct a two-story monitor style barn with a pallet quonset or pallet gothic arch roof for the 2nd story. One story "wings" along one or both sides could be conventional pole-barn approach or "1/4 circles" in keeping with the pallet quonset or pallet gothic arch approach. Much will depend on Laren's opinion of how large we can push the pallet quonset design.
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PALLET QUONSETS 101:
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There's quite a cottage industry around building furniture and crafts from used pallets, but I haven't found anything about building attractive and more or less "conventional" shelters with wood salvaged from used pallets. The used pallets come in various sizes, some 3' square, some 3'6" or even a little larger and every conceivable specie of wood -- so the brainstorm was, "what can we build with 2X4s of variable quality and dimension that are only 3' long?" From prior experience, I knew four of them could be put together with plywood gussets and liquid nail with a 7/16" crown sheathing stapler at a 45 degree angle to make an incredibly strong four-faceted gambrel roof over an 8' wide storage shed but I wanted something bigger.
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So I wondered what would happen if I put eight of them together at a 22.5 degree angle so I drew it up on paper. The resulting design is nearly 16' wide and nearly 8' tall -- all by itself -- with no vertical walls added (a 3' vertical wall would increase height to nearly 11' and make virtually all interior space useable). Did a Google on "quonsets" -- and came across some interior shots of an "eight-facet quonset cabin" which rents for $100 a night! Take a look -- I think it's nice to see how livable something like this could be: http://www.mountaininfo.com/cozy/21.html
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In the cabin pics, it looks like the lower-most facet is vertical -- it could be built that way OR the classic exterior shape preserved and non-load bearing "knee walls" added later to get the vertical wall. Built-in dressers and cabinets -- or the foot end of children's beds -- can use up much of this "buried" space behind the added vertical wall so no space is really wasted. Of the 16' width, 10' of the width is above 6' tall and 12' of the width is above 5' tall. It's only in the outer 2' feet that the shape becomes more wall than roof.
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Colored or galvanized metal (or better yet -- zincalume) is available 2' or 3' wide and up to 40' long in a single piece. If a structure is for unheated storage only, these metal sheets can be attached horizontally -- directly to the wood ribs with neo-screws (hex-drive screws which have a small neoprene washer under the head which compresses slightly and seals the hole). For a heated residence, though, wood sheeting is recommended. Then I realized we could use the thinner decking of the pallets for the sheathing as well. It's a real labor of love -- cutting all those small boards to 32" length -- to span the 16" centers of the ribs -- but a viable option for those with more time than money or those who are REALLY into recycling wood products. (It's important to offset the end splices between boards so that two end splices never end up directly above or below each other.) Deck boards come in various widths, so one might need to rip boards for any given row to the narrowest dimension of that group of boards. Some boards are thinner (use these on the more vertical facets closest to the ground) and some boards are thicker (use these on the more horizontal facets next to the ridge -- the highest peak of the structure). The grade of most of this lumber leaves a lot to be desired, so put the smoothest face to the outside and the roughest face towards the inside where it will never be seen again on a finished shelter anyway.
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As this shell functions as roof AND walls and is NOT vented (much as conventional walls are not vented), house wrap is a better option than 30# felt and doesn't cost much more (8-1/2 cents per s/f over 30# felt at 7-1/2 cents s/f). The 9' dimension (rolls of house wrap are 9' X 100') works almost perfect for this design. If shelter was only 32' long, one roll would do the whole shelter with 9" overlaps -- running the wrap horizontally.) We've always used architectural grade comp shingles when we have a roof deck that isn't perfectly smooth. They're a little more expensive, they don't have the little tab "cut-outs" (part of why they last longer), they're thicker and heavier, much better looking and last a lot longer. (Let me encourage you at this point to get the lightest color you can find and avoid dark brown or BLACK shingles unless you're looking to create a solar-powered pizza oven from hell.) The cheapest AG shingles at Home Depot have a 30-year warranty. The trick with these is to find a few bundles of regular comp shingles with a color match close enough to use for the ridge cap (it's a common problem so "matching" regular comp shingles are almost always available at the same source).
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I didn't allow for foundation, end walls, floor, insulation, liquid nail, Torx screws, door(s) & windows, sill plates and joist hangers (and a few hundred other items) -- but for the basic shelter -- I computed my costs: frame = free, sheathing = free, housewrap = 8-1/2 cents per s/f of surface area, AG shingles = 39-1/2 cents per s/f. A shelter 16' wide and 36' long is 576 square feet but the roof/wall surface area for this eight-facet quonset is 864 s/f for a total cost for a weather-tight shell of $415 dollars. I amortized this expense over the 30-year AG shingle warranty and ended up at $1.15 cents a month. Now THAT's what I call cheap shelter!
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For a bunch of links related to all manner of quonset stuff, pictures, design and history, go to my new blog at: http://palletquonset.blogspot.com/
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sail4free
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